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How can you possibly see a lineage from Tony (passionate, innovative, expressive) to Vinnie (creative, bombastic, slick) to the stiff, unmusical Drum-inator. I don't see that at ALL. And as an aside, why can't Lang play with the click on the DVD when he's doing the pad stuff? Couldn't they have reshot it so it sat with the click? Those takes should have stayed on the editing room floor.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think they want BOTH. And we owe it to them that they "discover" both.Quote:
Maybe solo clinics are not the best way of judging a player. You guys say you like to hear someone grooving on a clinic but from my point of view the audience want to see chops (and tricks and gimmicks...)
Clinics are fine, IMHO.
They help PROMOTE the awareness of the importance of the art of drumming at large. They certainly don't hurt, & I never see anyone other than some dyed in the wool musicians ever actually being "off'd" by them. Youngsters, fans who buy the tunes & material, & onlookers certainly aren't dissuaded by them. And certainly TL, Weck, Ersk [cool clinican - I know this is another animal], or anyone else FTM are not hurting their own cause by appearing on the clinic trail. [Hey, at least they arent out stealing, selling drugs, committing crimes... or causing general disorder & chaos - well, maybe that last one leaves TL out!! [img]wink.gif[/img] - they're contributing back]!
But it's also nice to see them in musical / band situations playing good, real music, of course. That's a given. But than again, I do also take into account the point of the whole speed-technique / WFD wave that it could potentially start.
But I certainly would rather see TL in clinic than much of the [insert latest MTV poster-boy here.] [Perhaps not all, though - maybe a few of them are real players - ya think?!] [img]tongue.gif[/img] J/K
The best drummers can of course play all their stuff OVER THE GROOVE. And along w the song form / melody. While making it FEEL good. VC, Weck, Ersk, Gadd, on & on...
Most clinics worth their salt that I've attended had the strong elements of grooving, musicality, phrasing, AND technique [AFA chops].
And, 1 final thought...TL himself [AWA the clinic stores] prob couldn't care less what we think. And prob shouldn't. [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 05, 2005 07:36 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Great point. Mangini also included.Quote:
...Yes they don't groove like Vinnie or Gadd or Tony but I think the influence of the drum machine and metal drumming has changed what is commercially required of a drummer (I know Thomas gets a lot of work for his ability to replicate drum machines live)
Maybe time has moved on...
On the other hand, 1 MORE final thought, though...
A friend of mine, in his best studio producer's voice, has this funny thing he says...
"Keltner?! [Gadd, JR, Marotta, Porcaro, Ersk...] WHAT?! Heck no!
Get me that guy who does the ridiculouis treeple flama-ratama-diddles at lightning speed between the RH & RF, while playing against it with 5, 7, 9, 23, & 27 with his LH, while keeping a clave w LF!!
Or that guy with, you know, that 'octopus' monster lick, huge kit thing going on...Bobby something or other...rock is it?!
Or that kid with the nose-to-nipple-to-ear-to-eyebrow pierce thingy & all the 'too's..." [I added that last one, sorry] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 05, 2005 07:52 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>
I guess my problem is that age old idea of knocking a drummer using the highly subjective, immeasurable concept of groove.
I know Thomas (and Marco M) have recieved this kind of bashing quite a bit...
I have been lucky enough to play with and listen to these guys quite a bit and to me it seems they can groove!!! maybe I'm wrong.
They have also changed the face of drumming.
...Yes they don't groove like Vinnie or Gadd or Tony but I think the influence of the drum machine and metal drumming has changed what is commercially required of a drummer (I know Thomas gets a lot of work for his ability to replicate drum machines live)
Maybe time has moved on...
I think Thomas has played on something like 800 recordings...
Hi Guys,
I just want say that what some people recorded in the past is VERY IMPORTANT !!!
It's the story about the music and a kind a legacy.
It's with this legacy that Jeff, Elvis, Carlos, Miles Davis, Jaco Pastorius,
Kenny Kirkland and many more are still with us and continues to inspire us.
Peace.
===================================
Hi Rodge,
yes, it's important, what they have DONE.
but that's not the point, I tried to figure out.
A paradiddle is a paradiddle for example. (o.k., it's a small example, just to make it clear.)
but a papadiddle, played by Colaiuta or Chambers or Hakim is not a better played paradiddle,
because they played on 100 good records in the past.
I don't like this kind of PastHeroeShip.
it prevents new growing.
And I'am just wondering because of the statements to a certain drummer called lang.
Did you hear anything about Donati or minnemann or ... ?
And I'am asking myself, WHY ?
why HE ?
It's easy for me to ask, because I wasn't a fan of TL.
the DVD Creative Control wasn't really a helpful dvd for me.
sometimes, I think, people don't like to see their heroes getting old
and see NEW heroes rising up.
And I'am sure, that most of the criticians KNOW very well,
what is going on on that TL Solo clip.
I just listenend again to this soloclip and it's the best 3 minute drumming, I heard since a long time.
And I agree with most of the statements about Weckl an Colaiuata and Chambers and so on.
I like them too.
but this 3 mimutes blows away anything else in my oppinion.
Chambers might be faster.
minnemann might have more interdependance,
colaiuta more approach, more dynamics and so on,
weckl more musical knowledge. yes, but ...
and if all have listenend and all have heard the same as I,
and I judge, it's brilliant and most of the others judge SHIT,
and I agree with the judegemants to most of the other drummers,
I'am wondering more and more WHY TL ?
Is it really, because he is not from england or america ?
perhaps because he plays popMusic ?
or because he is just austrIAN ? a so called JungleGerman ?
but minnemann is german too. so what ?
no idea.
Did you listen to the examples ?
so what ?
Hi Dazzler,
======================
Schreck, I'm not judging Thomas on what he has or hasn't accomplished in the past and I don't treat other musicians like that, so I don't know where you got that from.
All I'm judging him on is those clips and other videos I've seen of him previously. I'll check out the mp3's you posted later.
======================
I answered to GaryL. I forgot to mention his name. sorry.
Schrek...
I think there is a lot of truth in what you said...
Thomas to me seems like THE consumate musician who is able to operate in almost any musical situation.
He has worked really hard to develop a groove which is now highly sort after by todays producers and musicians (he has 'ghost' drummed for more acts than people realise.)
He also pretty much dominates the clinic scene.
You only have to watch that Steve Gadd Memorial DVD to see that those guys time has passed. This the natural way of things. In twenty years time Thomas will probably seem the same.
I love Vinnie and Gadd etc (I'm 36, same age as Thomas, so that was my era) but I'm glad to see the back of all that bland, eighties, mulletted, coked up, yo cates lite jazz...
Thomas is the epitome of classical technique.
tech?nique- n.
1. The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.
2. The way in which the fundamentals, as of an artistic work, are handled.
3. Skill or command in handling such fundamentals.
If you want to talk about pure command of the instrument in a classical way, Thomas has it. If you put any sheet of music in front of him, Thomas would be able to play it from top to bottom, sideways, backwards, whatever. He would do it from 1 bpm to 300+ bpm. He, in my mind, is a classically trained drummer.
I haven't heard him in other settings, so i can't say... but neither can anyone else here, because my money is on no one has really heard him try to swing, or play with a good funk band. What you HAVE heard, in Thomas, is a man with such technical command of the mechanisms, that it would lead one to believe that what you see is all you get, cause how could he groove on top of all that? My money is on he has more in his bag of tricks than just this... drummers don't hire drummers, and Thomas is getting hired.
All i can say is, if you wanna knock this technique, well, you can... but you will be wrong. He is what that word is. If you wanna say he can't swing like so and so... have you heard him try? If you say he can't back up a funk band, where did you hear him do that? He has technique that the definition of the word when it comes to drumming in a pure sense of the 'T' word. Maybe he can't groove... but don't assume so, just cause you haven't heard him attempt it. Save your credibility for when you have heard him shoot for it and miss, then you can give us the lowdown and let us all breathe a sigh of relief for that the man IS human.
I have heard a fair amount of bad-ass grooves, but guess what... i don't care about seeing that at a clinic for 2 hours!!! I could dig it for a while, but that is what i see live music for! I haven't, on the other hand, heard many people do what he does in his clinics... only when i saw Virgil and Marco live, have i ever witnessed that in person.
Thomas possesses skills that set him apart in a different way. Say, for arguement's sake, that Thomas COULD throw down a Gadd groove and do that all clinic... well, cool, but i would rather hear Gadd do it. I would rather hear Thomas do his thing... and his thing is pretty damn impressive, i don't care how much your ass doesn't move in it's seat... it is probably having trouble moving cause your jaw is anchored to the ground.
I have heard many people play the sh*t out of a shuffle, and i love it every time. I have heard people play the nicest grooves that just sat there all night, and didn't move from where they were supposed to be, and i loved it.
I haven't heard ANYONE do what Thomas does. He has something to offer that is different than what i have heard before, and therefore, that is what he is there to do. He isn't there to be Jeff, he is there to be Thomas.
Would anyone rail Heifetz for being too technically amazing on the violin?
I think it is ridiculous, the same things that pop up everytime some chops-guy gets posted:
"Oh my God, he can't groove... aw sh*t, is that all he does? Can't he calm down and play with a little feel..."
Who f*cking cares??? It isn't Thomas Lang with special guests Tower of Power... what do you want him to do, throw down some East Bay Grease Funk???
It's not what he is there for. He is there to blow your skirts up and make you bitch about it later and pretend you didn't like it.
Keep bitchin'... cause deep down, you know you liked it!
Hey Andy,
What you say is just ridiculous.
I would say more but with my little english I will not have the correct words.
But Man !!!
Give some RESPECT to Gadd and Vinnie, you are nothing compare to them if we talk about music, and if you say this kind of bulshit, you also don't look in my opinion like a nice Man.
Thomas is great Guy, and I'm sure that he has respect to everybody, even for you !!!
Anyway.